Monday, 28 July 2008

Can South Africa be saved under black rule? A contra view

An anonymous contributor from South Africa has made a number of comments which are interesting in that they're different from most whites. Here's a recent comment: responding to why I thought white South AFricans wanted SA to fail.

"I suppose it is human nature. Its quite rough though because I'm sure most still have friends and family in South Africa, so to hope it fails is hoping they end up on their faces.What do you mean by "driven" out of the country? If you mean that they were forced to leave I disagree. No whites are being forced to leave South Africa.

That comment is more accurately aimed at Zimbabwe. From my experience, most leave South Africa because of crime, service problems like power cuts etc, the fear of future instability and the promise of greener pastures. Is that what you mean by driven out? [Yes - that's what I mean, and I think it's a reasonable description]

All of these need to be improved and worked on but they are EVERYONES problems and not directed at a particular demographic. [I'm sure the SAS guys would have a view on that!] I think all the people leaving adds to that problem.I love Africa - the sun, the standard of living (having maids, garden boys and big houses)and I enjoy my life and my friends. The problems do make me uncomfortable at times but not enough to "drive" me out.

Its a disturbing thought that there are all you guys overseas watching the news and getting satisfaction when there is another problem in South Africa. People that are in effect hoping my lifestyle comes to an end and I have to start off fresh overseas.There is something I find quite ironic with this site. Its clearly an Irish site which attracts mainly comments from white Africans living in Ireland. [Undoubtedly many comments emanate from South Africans living in Ireland - but mainly from South Africans??? No way]

On this post most of them hope South Africa fails. On this same blog you can then go and comment on how Ireland is being invaded by Nigerians & Poles. [I never comlained about the Poles. Hard workers and gorgeous women. They'll easily assimilate if they stay and be productive citizens] The debate on Africa is white vs black. The debate on Ireland is Irish vs foreigners. . Can I sit in South Africa, watch the news and hope the Irish government kicks all of you foreigners flooding their country out? Remember that includes white South Africans because that debate is not white vs black, its Irish vs foreigners and the tables are turned.[This is at best partially true. Ireland's problem is with unsuitable immigrants, mainly black Africans, Muslims and Roma gypsies. I've never heard a complaint about white South Africans here, ever].

I don't have my head in the clouds. If you base South Africa's future on evidence from other African countries then you will most probably be proven right in the years to come.
28 July 2008 11:53

So my question would be - do you really think SA can be saved under black rule? You seem to be suggesting it can. For myself I hope you're right, as it is a most wonderful country. But I don't think so.

26 comments:

Anonymous said...

You haven't heard complaints about white South Africans in Ireland because they aren't there in masses yet. Most of them on this site probably think they are white so they fit in Europe & Ireland, yet the Nigerians don't cause they're black. This seems inaccurate due to Irish dislike of "white" Poles. South Africans are white foreigners - same category.

Maybe you don't consider Poles a problem like your countrymen because of your experience in Africa. You base your opinions on the black vs white distinction.

I read your blog on "May 25: Ireland celebrates 'Africa Day'" and somebody asked you not to refer to the Irish as "whites" because then you are including Eastern Europeans into the equation. In your next comment you corrected yourself and stated you had "fallen into this trap". So is their really that much love for the Poles there?

I'm not saying SA can be saved under black rule. I'm sure you want me to because you've probably argued it often and have great arguments.

I know people argue that the SA economy is not based purely on a single sector (eg agriculture & Zim) and has other sectors like mining. It also has developed financial markets which I believe was not as developed in other African countries which failed. It is much larger than the others and has more skilled labour etc.

SA left white rule much later than the other African countries and failure would take longer than the others due to the size of SA.

I see the main problem with Africa as being the leaders. You get bitter leaders who are greed driven soldiers rather than presidents. I am hoping that South Africa is large enough and that Mandela's leadership will have delayed South Africas fate long enough for new non bitter, better educated leaders to come into power that did not live through any white/black conflict and who can make decisions that are not based on those experiences, given their parents don't brain wash them. I believe except for Mandela, liberation leaders start to think as if the country owes them a huge favour and this is a huge problem.

I'm not fooled by Zuma's promising comments on Zim. He is a rapist and you can see hes the type of bitter/peoples leader that will bring the country to its knees. Yes, its probably coming.

But thats not what I want to argue about. Don't get my wrong I'm not a lover of them although not as right wing as you. What I am saying is that there is something disturbing about people (i.e. on this blog) hoping it fails. Especially, as I've mentioned, since they could be subjected to issues with the locals in the countries they've landed in. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if I sat here hoping white South Africans get kicked out of Ireland.

I saw what happened in Zimbabwe. Families were split because the fathers had to go work in other countries to earn forex, divorces because of money problems and deterioration of peoples lives. Its basically a whole community that was uprooted and spread around the world.

Why would you HOPE that happens to the people in South Africa?

By the way if that did happen you would have all the South Africans invading countries like Ireland in the type of numbers that creates discontent in Ireland. I'll look forward to commenting on that future blog.

And when you say you can't wait for SAS members comments? Do you mean SAS as in the soldiers? The wonders of anonymity - you can be anyone you want. I'm not sure how many SAS members are into regularly commenting on blogs on the internet in their spare time - whipped or not.

doodler said...

Apropos the SA poster. I pity her.
Not one SAn wants/ed the country to fail. In ’94 the majority of whites voted yes for a multi-racial government, a rainbow nation where all would be well, and we would live happily ever after. For that matter, I for one still want the country to succeed. I do not want to emigrate, nor did the hundreds of thousands of Sans who did. It really is not easy to emigrate and start all over.
Fact is that people vote with their feet. Those who left, mainly the crème de la crème of SA society did so vote. Crime, corruption, affirmative action, black economic empowerment (another term to describe legalised theft) sheer incompetence, etc; drove these people out. And currently SA has another massive wave of emigration, to such an extent that it is one of the major reasons for the housing market to drop.
The latest poll indicated that only 21 percent of whites are optimistic about their future here. So, almost 80 percent are unhappy. Almost half want to emigrate if they could. The age group 25 to 39 show a marked imbalance.
The fact that your correspondent indicates that “the problems do make me uncomfortable at times but not enough to "drive" me out” clearly shows that she suffers from the same malaise that the Jews suffered from in the early 1930’s. Remember that famous statement to the effect that the Germans are a civilised people, they would never harm us? Truth be told, we have many of them in SA.
But to get back to my point. I genuinely wish and pray that SA would succeed. However, I’ve made peace with the fact that it will merely slowly continue its inevitable decay into just another African shithole.
Almost 3,000 farmers have been attacked AND brutally murdered since ’94. Nobody denies these figures. Wonder what the reaction would be if this happened in first world countries? I never believed in the theory that there was a concerted effort to drive whites off their land, until my Damascene conversion. I had the “benefit” of arriving at a life long friend’s little farm after he got stabbed in the chest with a knife and then had a pick axe put through his skull and his girl friend shot to death. That was the third such farm attack in as many weeks. The house was open, car keys, money, cell phones, etc; were lying in plain sight but yet nothing was taken. The cop in charge then told me that these patterns were all the same. The previous week a retired doctor and his wife were killed on their farm. His death was merciful – he was shot. Hers wasn’t – she was tortured to death by means of boiling water.
Lets not even discuss the so-called home invasions we currently have to contend with, where the white male is killed immediately and the wife and daughters raped... I can go on and on ad nauseam, but I reckon you get my point.
And finally, are whites being driven out? I firmly believe we are. To correct your poster. There is no legislation aimed at driving whites out of the country. Neither is there any such law in Zimbabwe....yet we’ve seen the result.
So personally I don’t believe you guys abroad are gleeful at our fate in SA. All you are trying to do is prevent a boon infestation in your respective countries. And the perfect example to use to do so is South Africa. History will, in about a hundred years or so, prove you right.
And, as your poster points out:” If you base South Africa's future on evidence from other African countries then you will most probably be proven right in the years to come.” The reason? The whites have left.
Right on, sister...

SAVANT said...

A couple of rejoinders to anonynous.

First, I don't think the irish 'dislike' Poles. In fact I'm sure they/we dont - certainly not their girls! There is a negative reaction to the massive levels of immigration overall, and with rising unemployment this may focus a bit morde on the 'working' immigrants. But there's been virtually no adverse comment or even actions against white immigrants.

True, there are not huge numbers of white South Africans in ireland, but in any event they, just like all other native white English speakers, they fit in seamlessly here.

Sorry about SAS - I referred to the 'South Africa Sucks' blog, and sure enough doodler from that blog has replied already.

Anonymous said...

doodler, how do you know the commentator is female? Because she's so illogical?????

Anonymous said...

Confirmation - I'm a saffer living in Ireland for 3 years and have seen no resentment what so ever. In fact people tell me how much they now simpathyse with whites in SA now that they see what blacks are like in ireland.

Chris said...

I am the previous anonymous poster who posted the main message. I am male. I work in the financial services sector in Joburg.

Doodler...

South Africa is not just about farming. I know that is one sector where whites are the target and are driven out. Its a politically intense topic and a hornets nest in this country.

I am referring to crime as a whole. I do not think they particularly target whites in the cities. Whites are often the victims because we have the toys they want but blacks with cool toys also see this ugly side of South Africa. Lucky Dube - one of their idols wasn't cool enough to escape crime. I know of two black doctors one is now cripple (you see him on Carte Blanche often) and the other has brain damage from violent crimes against them.

And you've completely missed my point because you are so set on right wing ideas. I am not saying that South Africa is different from the other failing African countries.

I am saying why do you push negativity? Why do you create a whole website on negatives happenings in South Africa? Your statistics just highlight that everyone has the problems in SA on their minds. We think about it and live with the issues daily - why make it worse by basing your entire life around it...its lame!

Chris said...

Okay, doodle its not really lame but let me explain my situation. I've built my career around South African tax. I'm screwed if things go the way you mention. I hate hearing negatives because each time it reminds me that if it goes that way I'm screwed. I don't have a choice so I just have to remain and focus on the positives. I suppose I shouldn't be googling and reading negative blogs then...but I don't like to remain completely ignorant.

As for savant: the title of this blog was aimed at getting people excited. I do not have faith in the gov of South Africa and South Africas future. You've twisted it to make it seem as if I believe South Africa will be saved. Thats not what my post was aimed at - it was just saying I hate the negativity.

And to South Africans living in Ireland. I'm sure the Irish love you - we have the most awesome culture around. I was making (seems a bit silly now) the point that most of you seem to want to see failure in Africa which again makes me nervous.

Anonymous said...

thanks for 'coming out' Chris. It's fucking liberal wankers like you who gotten us all into this problem. the country is going to hell in a handcart. you think we WANTED it like this?

Anonymous said...

Maybe 'Savant' wants it to fail because its then look like blacks fuck everything which they do and ireland will be less ready to let them in there.

Chris said...

"thanks for 'coming out' Chris. It's fucking liberal wankers like you who gotten us all into this problem. the country is going to hell in a handcart. you think we WANTED it like this?"

What the hell is that about? I'm not "liberal" at all. Infact, I think I'm the complete opposite. How the hell did I in any way contribute to its decline? Believe me thats the most off point comment.

You contributed to it by being an obviously uneducated dumbass (I gather that from your language) - while all the unskilled labour leaves - South Africa is stuck with half wits like you!

I did not say South Africans wanted it. I commented on the fact that some comment from people overseas seemed to hope it happened - a comment which Savant saw some truth in.

I'd appreciate proper comments and debate rather than insults.

Rhein said...

They've already failed, time and time again. In our countries as much as in theirs.

Anonymous said...

ok, let me say a bit more politely what the previous speaker meant. you - all of us whites - we should have seen what was coming down the road when we voted in the ANC in 1994. maybe something could have been done if liberals - you say your not - had not been fooling themselves since in SA.

Anonymous said...

Chris - just to clarify: I think many of them do want SA to fail, even though deep down they're probably ashamed of their emotions.

Think of it this way: if you're dropped from your team a part of you hopes that they'll lose. Pretty ignoble, but human nature I'd say.

SA whites see their once-great country being looted by incompetents and thieves. I can understand their motives. As for me, if it fails it might bring home to Europeans the full negative impact of blacks on a society. Selfish, but human nature, I suppose.

Chris said...

I can understand the whole wanting a team to fail thats dropped you. I think deep down people are ashamed of it and thats why they get so defensive and offensive.

In response to all the assumptions about me: I'm a male (just double clarifying that one) and I was only 15 years old in 1994 so I didn't vote.

Another thing I want to bring up:

One thing about this blog is that the people making the comments are exactly the same as my dad. Obviously the older generations have been through the conflict etc and its lead to pessimistic outlooks and a bit of resentment. I'm not a munt lover by any means but at the same time whenever you question something or try see something from the other sides perspective its immediately shut the hell down. Anything with the slightest scent of pro-black is a no go area. I don't think its constructive. In a way isn't that exactly what crappy African leaders (eg Mugabe) do - refuse to listen to the other sides opinion.

NOW don't go jump on the wagon saying I'm a snot nosed evil hippy k-lover whose father should have drowned him at birth. I agree Africans are useless, bitter and self-destructive but I think I should be allowed to determine that on my own and without the brain washing that older generations pass on.

Chris said...

Savant, despite throwing my comments into the deep end you've been really quiet.

Ireland and the Polish. I was in Ireland last year visiting family in Wicklow. They were in the process of buying a new car and we got a taxi driver to take us out to an area with loads of car dealers. There were two lots almost next to eachother and the taxi driver told us "Don't buy from this one - its owned by Polish people. Buy from the Irish one next to it." Another Irishman told me they had a collection for kids with cancer at his work and the only two people who didn't contribute in the office were a Nigerian & a Pole, I was of the opinion he viewed them as equally disgusting. Thats where my idea came from and since then I've read loads of Irish blogs and sites that have negative opinions on the Polish presence in Ireland.

And if they did tighten up immigration laws in Ireland I doubt they would include a clause that excludes "whites" - every foreigner would be subjected to it.

SAVANT said...

Chris - I have responded to your comments. In fact you seem a reasonable guy and for the record I've had some major run-ins wth the guys from SAS and similar blogs. I agree that their approach is either you're 100% with us our you're an enemy'.

Re Poles, you could be right, but I doubt it. There's NO WAY that irish people would put them in the same class as Nigerians. I think that we're simply over-run with immigrants over the last 10 years (far faster proportionally than America ever was, I might add) and Poles are taking some of the hits. But generally they're seen as honest and hard-working - if extremely dull!

doodler said...

@chris
Do yourself a favour. Beetle off to the Roodepoort Regional Court. Get there before 9am and spend an hour or two just observing the proceedings. For you non SAns the Regional court hears cases such as murder, rape, etc.
Then stroll out and remember that our conviction rate is something like two out of a hundred...

And btw, your comment about getting screwed if things go pear shaped....I was right - you are one of those who prefer to see or hear no evil. Catch a wake up bro, coz you will be screwed. And further btw, listen to your father. Clearly he is wise - age does sometimes tend to bring about wisdom.

And another thing, forget this business about being brainwashed as a racist. You are not being brainwashed - the facts speak for themselves, no matter how much you are into denialism.

For that matter I'm surprised you still have a job in the financial services game, given all the AA and BEE the banks have resorted to. Probably in IT are you? The only thing the boons can't do properly.

Anonymous said...

Whoops - big blunder doodler. You admit now that the 'boons' can do any job except IT. Explain that away!

doodler said...

@anony 10.49
Nope - obviously you don't understand, so let me explain.

The banks have mainly Indians and Coloureds supervising - they count as AA remember - because the banks are compelled by law to hire based on race, and if they don't, they suffer severe fines. Here and there you will spot the odd white face.

As far as the boons are concerned, you find lots in positions in HR, tellers and marketing - i.e; "soft" spots where they cannot screw up too much. Even there, though you have numerous Indians and Coloureds who do their best to contain matters as far as possible, they cannot be all over the show, which of course is the reason we have such generally incompetent service from our banks.

I've learned by now that if I have an unusual request, I dont even bother with the clerks, because all you get is an uncomprehending stare and a finger in a nostril, followed by "hau!". (Expression of amazement/surprise)
As far as more senior management is concerned, again HR and marketing tend to be black.
The real stuff, requiring brain power, such as IT and finance is still run by whites and again, Indians.
Why? Cause the boons just cannot do so...of course they think they can, but the results are all too clear to see. Remember, the average IQ of our darker hued brethren in SA is a paltry 67! Now do you really and truly believe that they can program computers, etc?
Thank God my personal banker is white, and my business bankers are Indian.

Chris said...

Doodler:

Yes South Africa is going to fail. Guess what - everyone is also going to die.

Since you are a fan of pessimism why don't you create a website listing everyones health problems and go around constantly reminding everyone that no one lives forever and their death is soon approaching.

Anonymous said...

Accidently posted this in "America's Decline" but was intended for this blog:

Gloom and doom! Gloom and doom! This place has no hope. We're all screwed! Get out while you can.
SAS must be a hit at all the braais.

As for Chris. Some people are interested in knowing about the dirt and grit that is going on which is detailed in his blog. If you don't like it - don't read it.

Anonymous said...

Have you seen the Irish cricket team to face Kenya?
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/other/2008/0819/1219158412702.html

Andre Botha & Reinhardt Strydom...as Irish as they come haha!

Anonymous said...

Can't agree with all of you. I still think SA can succeed as a rainbow nation. Just because many of you have a right wing agenda doesn't mean that SA will fail.

Chris said...

Anon @ 16:43
I don't think it will fail either but try to reason with these biggots if you dispute the fact. Its better to just ignore it and argue with points they haven't spent good portions of their life disproving.

Anonymous said...

To my mind the points made by Chris have been addressed by various commentators. What points have not?

Piet

Viking said...

Well I have a complaint about white South Africans living in Ireland- they do nothing but complain!
The believe they have a right to go there because of some notion that they are related to us - and spend thier time complaining about how "backward" Ireland is. They don't realise that they've shifted from the economic top 5% of their own country to the bottom 5 in Ireland..
They also spend a lot of time bitching about their own country, putting SA down and, yes, hoping it fails so they can say 'I told you so'. If you leave your country behind, then leave it behind and stop whining!