Tuesday, 19 August 2008

Nigerians: A response

The following is a comment on the post 'Nigerians love Ireland - and why not?'

"I can't believe how narrow minded and foolish some of the comments from irish people are on here.To start, do not tar all africans with the sins of a minority of nigerians. Nigerians do not represent africa- it's the same as saying the germans represent europe- how german are all you irish folk?...please..Also get you facts straight about Africans in general- most Africans who come to Europe come to WORK, save money and send some home to their families so they do not starve...these are real issues for many people in africa.

Most African kids who go to school in Europe (whichever country) work very hard and often get much higher educational achievements than other ethnic minority groups -e.g. in the UK for example, kids with an african backgound often do exceptionally well (just like indians)...but caribbean-backgound kids or pakistanis statistically do very poorly...

as to the nonsence about white people not being welcolmed in africa- again that is sheer BS. if you are white and willing to contribute and move to africa to start a business or for whatever reason, people are overwhelmingly warm & friendly, in my experience. I've lived in e. africa for long periods and have many friends there & without a doubt, people will treat you better (in most cases) than a local..the poster who mentioned how priviliged irish people are to be born in a white western country is spot on.

we have so many advantages as irish people and given our past and the suffering we experienced as a people before the 1980's, we should be ashamed to act ungenerously and in a hostile way to immigrants.please remember that there are many irish people who cheat the social security systems, are in prison, & do negative things...

nigerians are no different to white people...a small minority will steal, cheat etc. but the point is IT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRICAN OR BLACK..it is because they are human...i suggest some of these zenophobic posters actually speak to the immigrants they do down so much or just people of a different skin colour and when they do and are a bit more culturally open and educated they will realise just how foolish these narrow minded attitudes are.

as to the irish-nigerian girl...you GO...as an irish guy I'm proud of u.."

Just shows, some people shouldn't be left out on their own!

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Some of his comments I agree with to a certain extent but some are complete bullshit:

1. It is not a minority of Nigerians who cheat the system. Look at the statistics in relation to rental assistance receipients etc. that are published in the newspapers. There is a good number of Nigerians abusing the system.

2. His comments about Africa are bullshit. He probably stayed in a nice hotel and the waiters were really friendly to him. He probably didn't venture into the townships (where majority of the country live) cause then he would have seen how unwelcome his white skin is.

3. Although there are problems with immigration, the more direct problems are with asylum seekers. The people who have been caught up for the system for 3 years or have been given leave by the Irish gov. The ones who basically manipulated the system so they didn't have to meet the requirements of getting a work visa and are not genuine refugees. They are "the Africans" people have a problem with.

Anyways, if he loves them so much...by all means he must go and base his entire life in an African country. When he loses everything in an unjust and undemocratic manner and sees the ugly side of Africa, then I will put more weight on his opinion. They are so polite to you here because it's in their interests you idiot!

Rhein said...

The same ideological arguments over and over... Africans commit way more crimes than whites. Look at all the rapes in nordic countries, or the gang rapes called "tournantes" in France, just to name a few.

African-Americans are genetically Africans are they not? And look at the difference between their crime rates and white Americans. Or Asian-Americans for that matter.

But in any case it's all about demography. You lose that you lose your country, no exceptions in all history. And if you lose your country then you'll eventually lose everything you have. Your culture, your nationality, even our race if we all keep this up. And all the hardship your ancestors suffered like he mentioned will all have been for naught.

Anonymous said...

Some of his comments I agree with to a certain extent but some are complete bullshit:

1. It is not a minority of Nigerians who cheat the system. Look at the statistics in relation to rental assistance receipients etc. that are published in the newspapers. There is a good number of Nigerians abusing the system.

2. His comments about Africa are bullshit. He probably stayed in a nice hotel and the waiters were really friendly to him. He probably didn't venture into the townships (where majority of the country live) cause then he would have seen how unwelcome his white skin is.

3. Although there are problems with immigration, the more direct problems are with asylum seekers. The people who have been caught up for the system for 3 years or have been given leave by the Irish gov. The ones who basically manipulated the system so they didn't have to meet the requirements of getting a work visa and are not genuine refugees. They are "the Africans" people have a problem with.

Anyways, if he loves them so much...by all means he must go and base his entire life in an African country. When he loses everything in an unjust and undemocratic manner and sees the ugly side of Africa, then I will put more weight on his opinion. They are so polite to you here because it's in their interests you idiot!

Anonymous said...

What an idiot! He doesnt have the 1st idea. Sayig that Africans dont commit excessive crime and do well in education. He hasnt obviiously read the rest of this blog which provides FACTS and STATISTICS - not stupid impressions like this clown.

skot german said...

"We should be ashamed to act ungenerously and in a hostile way to immigrants".

Why should the Irish be ashamed?? By what moral standard do you make this claim? Oh hell, don't answer that. I don't give a toss about your moral presuppositions.

Some of my standards are: racial survival is good, peace and harmony are good, low population is good and prosperity is good. Bringing in Africans is a sin by my standards.

Anonymous said...

he says "as to the irish-nigerian girl...you GO...".

I say the same thing - go back to Nigeria!

Rohan Swee said...

the poster who mentioned how priviliged irish people are to be born in a white western country is spot on.

Because after God created all the peoples of the earth, he scattered them about randomly over the face of the planet, and some of them got lucky and were plopped into the cushy white western countries, that came ready-made with maintained roads, functioning social and political institutions, rule of law, that sort of thing. Others, not so lucky, landed in crapholes. Your commenter makes it sound as if some white western Martians just gifted the lucky dog Irish with their country. And it's all so unfair, since those good things were just there for the taking in Western Europe and some other completely random places, and don't in the least bit represent the cultural work and sacrifice of centuries, that the workers and sacrificers might have wanted to pass on to their own posterity. Nope, the fickle finger of fate just happened to plop coincidentally-named white western people into mysteriously unconnected white western countries. If we moved all of Nigeria to Hibernia, and transferred the Irish to Nigeria, I'm sure the Irish would be clamoring to live amongst the transplanted Nigerians now, wouldn't they? (Or would we just see some acceleration in the rate of development of advanced sunblock technology?)

Anonymous said...

Nice one, Rohan!

Anonymous said...

Nice one, Rohan!

yeh right. Rohan needs to get some perspective ...on just why ireland is a relatively well developed and wealthy country now instead of a backward underdeveloped "craphole" (classy choice of phrase to use as well).

Ireland pre the 1980s was underdeveloped, backward (seems like we're still workin on this one) and insular. If you're Irish you'll know pretty damned well there were parts down the country where ud seriously suspect inbreeding of the worst kind.

We became rich and wealthy because we used the EU to our full advantage. We got so much money in grants, loans and payments for infrastructure and set aside fields that we were dragged up to somewhere near the European average after a couple of decades.

irish people contributed to this...& esp. with inter-EU trade ....but let's get this str8...if Ireland had to rely on just herself as a stand alone island we'd be poor as hell. We're tiny and need other countries to make the money that means a high GNP.

And on a wider point European and Western wealth as it exists now was not built over what "Rohan" calls "centuries of sacrifice".......it was built on centuries of using greater power and military strength to take advantage of every corner of the globe and rape mineral wealth to our hearts content.

This is what makes me sad to hear Irish people behaving like bigots. Ireland was never part of that theft & rape centuries ago...the British were, the French, the Spanish, the Belgians...even the German a little...but not us.

Rohan needs to learn some history- political & economic...

Anonymous said...

Some of his comments I agree with to a certain extent but some are complete bullshit:

1. It is not a minority of Nigerians who cheat the system. Look at the statistics in relation to rental assistance receipients etc. that are published in the newspapers. There is a good number of Nigerians abusing the system.

2. His comments about Africa are bullshit. He probably stayed in a nice hotel and the waiters were really friendly to him. He probably didn't venture into the townships (where majority of the country live) cause then he would have seen how unwelcome his white skin is.

3. Although there are problems with immigration, the more direct problems are with asylum seekers. The people who have been caught up for the system for 3 years or have been given leave by the Irish gov. The ones who basically manipulated the system so they didn't have to meet the requirements of getting a work visa and are not genuine refugees. They are "the Africans" people have a problem with.

Anyways, if he loves them so much...by all means he must go and base his entire life in an African country. When he loses everything in an unjust and undemocratic manner and sees the ugly side of Africa, then I will put more weight on his opinion. They are so polite to you here because it's in their interests you idiot!






All right...let's see...so he agrees with my comments but at the same time they're BS....hmmmm??

The points I made about Africa are not bullshit. Either you are a white South African or someone who has never been to Africa. If you are South African (the word townships is a bit of a give away !lol) I can understand exactly why you come out with this nonsence. Everyone else on the continent of Africa knows not to pay too much attention to S. Africans.

I know that if you're white & live in Africa people will treat you well. I have lived in Africa and have a house in Kenya. I have friends who are Kenyan (and other nationalities) who treat me just as well as any of their other friends.

Africans are some of the most friendly, decent hard-working people that you will ever meet. Obviously if you have never actually set foot on the continet or are too myopic to even speak to an African who has moved to Europe YOU WILL NOT KNOW THIS!!


Despite what this genius says...the reality when it comes to asylum figures in Ireland is not exactly earth shattering...
Ireland received 4,314applications - under 1.5% of all who sought asylum in the industrialised world in 2007. This figure is from the UN.....out total compared to 4,545 applied in Malta and 4,223 in Poland....

so lets put this in contaxt ...we get the same number of asylum seekers as MALTA...

do I really need to say anything more??

What exactly are these diect problems with asylum seekers this guy goes on about? God alone knows what this is supposed to mean...is it implying crimionality is driven more by asylum seekers than refugees or economic migrants....& how the hell would he know...please

For me personally I don't condemn asylum seekers who claim asylum even though their prime motivation to immigrate is economic. They do not move half way round the world just to annoy people like this guy...they're busy trying to earn money and improve their lives....just like Irish people did for centuries before most countries had set up immigration systems.

Anonymous said...

"The points I made about Africa are not bullshit. Either you are a white South African or someone who has never been to Africa."
I have lived in about 6 different African countries throughout my entire life so my 45 years of experience there is definately more extensive than your "holidays" to Kenya.

"Africans are some of the most friendly, decent hard-working people that you will ever meet. "
So those news clips of your fellow Kenyan brothers running around during the last elections looting and killing - that must have been made up. They look real friendly down in the townships there! It is a well known fact that of all the African colonies to change over the Kenyans were known to do the most disgusting acts of savagery. Infact, I used to know a white lady who came from Kenya who had her hands cut off for trying to grab her 4 year old while rebels raped her..this was many years ago, and I'm sure you're young and naive so wouldn't have the slightest clue of what happened there.

"Ireland received 4,314applications - under 1.5% of all who sought asylum in the industrialised world in 2007".
1.5% of the industrialised world - sorry does Ireland have a population size in line with the rest of the industrialized world? NO - we have a comparatively tiny population so that figure is pointless. Do you think asylum seekers only applied in 2007 and then stopped? We are receiving that each year and it has been a problem for 10 years or so. And yes, 90% of applications are ficticious and I have a problem with those ficticious asylum seekers abusing the welfare system but the biggest problem I have with it is that they take up state housing and the gov places specific nationalities together, so my street has an overwhelming number of Nigerians. You can say what you like but I have seen the problems that come with them! The place is a bloody ghetto.

You should condemn bogus asylum applicants as a white in Africa. If you love your brothers so much why don't you take a walk through a township on a Saturday afternoon, I'm sure you'll be fine.

You think you are intelligent? Why? Because from your little piss willy experience in Africa you have had fun. Why don't you read your history books instead of questioning those who have seen what Africans are capable of over and over again.

Anonymous said...

And for your information the part of your post I agree with is the fact that some foreign children excel in schools abroad because they have a responsibility to do well. Apparently in UK schools African children who of conscious of a bad experience back home work harder. Those who are not concious are not good academics.

Can I ask how long the person has lived in Kenya? You do know there were innocent fun loving whites like yourself living there who were chased out a few years ago dont you? Given the recent riots in the country, there is nothing to suggest it is more civilized today...maybe your mother and sisters will be the next victims of fun loving Africans?

You suggested an Irish person should learn their history - political & economic. Maybe you should learn yours on Africa.

Anonymous said...

The anonymous African traveller second from bottom above is living a fantasy if he thinks travel now and again to a continent compares with actually living in a place......so NO your experience is NOT more extensive...it is LESS extensive...& i'd guess by far..


but you really start to get going with-
"It is a well known fact that of all the African colonies to change over the Kenyans were known to do the most disgusting acts of savagery."

and embarrass yourself with talk of rebels cutting off white people's hands. Now let me see...is that an inane attempt to be humourous??? I thought so.......

for the benefit of visitors who unfortunately happen on this site & don't know....

the only hands cut off in Kenya were during the 1950's were of largely Kikuyu people who most of the time were in the wrong place at the wrong time when the British colonial army came through an area and decided to slaughter a few Kikuyu to show they were fighting legitimate freedom fighters...the Mau Mau...

most of the time they never got near the actual Mau Mau so they just killed some locals and corrupted the local collaborationist Kenyan police serving under them to such an extent that they forced them to bring back hands cut from corpses to show the British that X number of Mau Mau were killed...

the only hands being bandied about in Kenya were BLACK and belonged to people killed by WHITE people

THE DEPTHS TO WHICH YOU AS A POSTER WOULD STOOP TO LIE AND MISREPRESENT SUCH A PAINFUL HISTORY IS REALLY SHAMEFUL...



And NO I'm not particularly young and definitely NOT naive enough to fall for your BS ...


the reality is Kenaya and Ireland have so much in common in our histories..esp as regards colonial era oppression from the British...the use of an equivalent "Black and Tans" type military to terrorise and kill the local population and the use of internment on a mass scale...

maybe you should go and try and read up on some Irish and then African history...beacuse you obviously have NO clue..


As to the point about immigraion figures I think I've already made that point abundanently clear...clear enough fopr anyone with a modicum of intelligence to understand....

OUR SHARE OF REFUGEE, ASYLUM AND IMMIGRANT NUMBERS IS TINY AS A TOTAL NUMBER, AS A PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION, AS A SHARE OF EUOPEAN INTAKE AND AS ASHARE OF GLOBAL MIGRANT MOVEMENT...

IT'S SO SMALL ONLY A MYOPIC, IGNORANT, LITTLE ISLANDER WHO HAS NOT CLUE ABOUT THE WORLD OUTSIDE HIS SMALL SPACE WOULD THINK IT'S IN ANY WAY OF ANY CONSEQUENCE


As to your ridiculous point about going for a walk in the "township" on a Saturday...give me a break...
you can walk in most parts of most bits of the continent of Africa and you'll be fine....say that about some parts of Dublin (& yes...beacuse you'll be mugged by some junkie gurrier who is IRISH)

just for your education- the poorer areas of cities in Kenya are not "townships"...I keep telling you ...they're called that in S. Africa ...not elsewhere...so stop trnasferring your S African bigoted language to other parts of the continent...they don't want or need it...




Finally, for the benefit of the bottom poster who is a little more sane-

I have lived in Kenya some time- years. I know parts of Africa very well....I am an academic and an Africanist...I have been at Trinity, SOAS (London) and the US...
I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT...

There were no whites chased out of Kenya...there are stilllarge numbers of white Kenyans who are well integrated in many parts of the capital and country...

The election violence is not something you should be laughing about my friend. It was however resolved through political means...

maybe you should learn your history.....



"The points I made about Africa are not bullshit. Either you are a white South African or someone who has never been to Africa."
I have lived in about 6 different African countries throughout my entire life so my 45 years of experience there is definately more extensive than your "holidays" to Kenya.

"Africans are some of the most friendly, decent hard-working people that you will ever meet. "
So those news clips of your fellow Kenyan brothers running around during the last elections looting and killing - that must have been made up. They look real friendly down in the townships there! It is a well known fact that of all the African colonies to change over the Kenyans were known to do the most disgusting acts of savagery. Infact, I used to know a white lady who came from Kenya who had her hands cut off for trying to grab her 4 year old while rebels raped her..this was many years ago, and I'm sure you're young and naive so wouldn't have the slightest clue of what happened there.

"Ireland received 4,314applications - under 1.5% of all who sought asylum in the industrialised world in 2007".
1.5% of the industrialised world - sorry does Ireland have a population size in line with the rest of the industrialized world? NO - we have a comparatively tiny population so that figure is pointless. Do you think asylum seekers only applied in 2007 and then stopped? We are receiving that each year and it has been a problem for 10 years or so. And yes, 90% of applications are ficticious and I have a problem with those ficticious asylum seekers abusing the welfare system but the biggest problem I have with it is that they take up state housing and the gov places specific nationalities together, so my street has an overwhelming number of Nigerians. You can say what you like but I have seen the problems that come with them! The place is a bloody ghetto.

You should condemn bogus asylum applicants as a white in Africa. If you love your brothers so much why don't you take a walk through a township on a Saturday afternoon, I'm sure you'll be fine.

You think you are intelligent? Why? Because from your little piss willy experience in Africa you have had fun. Why don't you read your history books instead of questioning those who have seen what Africans are capable of over and over again.

SAVANT said...

Now I'm totally confused. Or more likely, anonynmous 10.58 is totally confused.

I've written nothing about Kenya or walking in townships. What ARE you on about?

Nel said...

I think it is safe to assume that the opposition poster here refuses to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with Africa.

Kenyans were the first to over throw white rule. They were the most violent. He doesn't seem to have any knowledge of this era in Kenyan history.

Anonymous said...

get your facts straight Nel...Ghana was the first African state to gain independence and did it entirely peacefully...

Kenya had to fight for hers....much like Ireland did ...

like so much of what is posted here your "facts" are WRONG...look it up GHANA FIRST...


don't write "He doesn't seem to have any knowledge of this era in Kenyan history" when you don't have the first clue quite patently....

Anonymous said...

Savant if you're confused that's nobody's fault but your own...

try reading what's written on your blog...it was the genius who masquesrades as anonymous 11:14 the response was for....

Anonymous said...

My daugher just back from holiday in Kenya, which anonymous sees as so wonderful. They could go nowhere without 2 guards. What a mess. I told her, but like anonymous, couldnt get through

Nel said...

Ooh I completely forgot Ghana. I said Kenya was the first to "over throw" white rule, that did not happen in Ghana.

Ghana followed the lead of India's lead with a relatively peaceful hand over. Does the words "over throw" give you the impression of treaties and peace?

You say it was a lie that a white lady had her hands cut off during the troubles in Kenya. Those things did happen my friend! Yes, the colonial army also did horrific things to the Kenyans but it was SOLDIERS versus SOLDIERS and not terror (acts such as rape) on innocent members of a community.

I know from your posts who you are. You are not Irish living in Kenya. You are a black Kenyan who has studied in Kenya and lived for a while or is living in Ireland. Your ignorance and blind defence of Africans is a give away.

SAVANT said...

Well, now, anonymous. Is Nel correct? Are you really Kenyan? Don't be shy, let us know. believe it or not, we really do (most of us) welcome a debate here, but as far as possible we should show our colours, so to speak.

What about it?

Anonymous said...

Of course I'm not Kenyan. Nel is wrong as with much of what he comes out with.
I'm Irish born & bred and proud of it. I'm also proud to spend time in a country like Kenya, where people will treat you as a fellow human being 1st and not trot out racist, bigoted bullshit.

Anonymous said...

Skot German's comments above
(20 August 2008 03:45 ) are so myopic and ridiculous they have to be taken apart-

We should be ashamed to act ungenerously to immigrants because we have a history whereby we had large numbers of our people who HAD to emigrate to survive in the past(a German would not appreciate this)....just like Africans have to do now.
They benefited from no immigration regime when this happened and were absorbed by host countries.Immigrants to Ireland can be absorbed in just the same manner.

Immigrants help drive the economy, work harder, are more entrepreneurial, help bring down the average pop. age and enrich a society culturally and socially.

MOST IRISH PEOPLE ARE FINE WITH THE LEVELS OF MIGRANTS NOW IN THE COUNTRY.

It is just bigots like the people on this site and right-wing media people who like to portray themselves as anti-establishment, who make noise about immigration. The killer and laughable point with people like this is, just like how Savant portrays himself, they often were quote "liberals" in a past life, prob. the 60's and 70's(again to be different) and now that is too mainstream they revert to anti-establishment conservatism so they're not agreeing too often with everyone else....lol...

what's the common denominator in this behaviour? attention seeking self-portrayl as different and un-PC....pathetic and childish in most sane people's books...


Skot German says:
Some of my standards are: racial survival is good, peace and harmony are good, low population is good and prosperity is good. Bringing in Africans is a sin by my standards.

NO. Your simplistic concept of "racial survival" is ridiculous. All races have evolved and changed down through the centuries. Irish people are a mongrel race..as are Germans and most others unless you're from Iceland lol.
All Irish people reading this will know we are made up of Celts, Vikings, Normans, English and peoples from many other ethnic backgrounds.
The same is absolutely true of most African nationalities who have a complex ethnological makeup.

You will only have the peace and harmony you want in a globalised world by being fair to people globally.

You will not have prosperity in the future by insular narrow minded jingoistic protectionism. That is a recipe for degeneration. So for all those people arguing...let's close the borders, seal ourselves up in a vaccum and let the rest of the world go to hell in a handcart....GET A GRIP!!
You would end up with a geriatric, undynamic and increasingly sidelined, poor economy and scoiety....

your answers are a recipe for FAILURE. You need to understand and engage with reality and the world that currently actually exists ...not some mad racist utopia of your imagination..

Denny said...

"You need to understand and engage with reality and the world that currently actually exists ...not some mad racist utopia of your imagination.."
Would you agree there is a large imbalance in the world? People who promote open borders are not realistic. If we didn't have borders and controls this country would be crushed by a flood of non-nationals.

Personally, I am one of the people for a multicultural Ireland. BUT I am for a controlled multicultural Ireland through visas etc. I regard anyone who thinks that a borderless country is a good idea as insane!

Anonymous said...

Denny who said that no borders would ever be a good idea?? Certainly not me.
Border controls exist NOW in all the developed world and work pretty fine. The volume of people who move across borders in the West is enormous..
Immigration should be managed and IS...but my case would be that we need to issue many more work visas and give people an opportunity to contribute to the Irish economy and reap benefits themselves as a consequence and allow Ireland to benefit from this workforce...

it's hardly a scary or revolutionary concept...except to the doubting thomases on here...

as to whether I'm Irish or not I'm getting sick of this hogwash. I'm prob more Irish than nearly every1 on here...I just am not a bigot and racist.
You all just can't understand somebody who sees other humans as equal and the same as me or any other Irish person...

Denny said...

Anonymous, I think you are a black person who has lived in Ireland. Your comments seem too personal - perhaps you have married a Kenyan if you are Irish?

"Immigration should be managed and IS"
It is NOT managed properly in Ireland that is the problem! You cannot argue that and be taken seriously. Read this article - the author has no agenda:
http://www.africamigration.com/archive_01/j_komolafe_searching.htm

You can clearly see the UNCONTROLLED lapses in Irish immigration law that have occured. I'm not trying to focus on Nigerians specifically but majority of the case law setting precedent on this topic involves Nigerian nationals so you can see where there have been flaws in immigration laws.

Why do you think the government cannot give you an accurate figure of what portion of the population is non-nationals? It is not a task of adding up PPS numbers, there are thousands of illegal immigrants in this country.

In 2004 when we changed the law to stop babies born in Ireland from non-national parents from being citizens the government had 17 000 families here who were here illegally. It was a break down of our immigration law and it certainly was NOT controlled. Some haphazard scheme was put in place to accomodate them, certainly not CONTROLLED.

I want to debate something with you. I consider myself a reasonable person and I would expect a respectful and thought out answer from you, without any mud slinging (as I have avoided unconstructive name calling):

I don't think that people in Ireland have a problem with professionals from around the world coming and working in Ireland and contributing. I do think that it is a give and take situation, and Ireland should afford the same courtesies to non-nationals that our citizens are shown.

However, in situations described above where immigration law has failed, it is no secret that several of the people who exploited the flaws were fleeing the lower socio-economic bracket of their countries of origin in Africa. I do not think that importing people from African countries to take up upper lower to lower middle class jobs is a good idea and is not constructive for the Irish.

I know some would say that it is inhumane to turn them away and they have a right to a better life. However, there is a shortage of jobs in that bracket in Ireland and hard times at the moment (and for the last few years) for that very sensitive section of Irish society. So I do not believe a foreigners right to a better life should infringe on an Irish families right to a good life.

At the end of the day, I agree with you that people should not be confined and should be allowed to travel the corners of the world to work, live and contribute. However, contribution should be seen in the wider context - you can work as hard as you like but if you have taken a job from an Irishman for which there is no alternative (a very real occurence) then you are not contributing from a macro perspective.

At the end of the day I am against economic migration of unskilled labour. I know the Irish have done it in the past but as you have said in other posts, it was to "countries with opportunities". Ireland does not have opportunities amongst their working class at the moment. The immigrants are not fulfilling demands, they are creating supply of labour. The reason I associate this problem with Africa and not EU accession states is that the material abuses of immigration law have been from lower-socio economic African migrants. With the EU migrants, the effect is the same, but joining the EU is what accelerated Ireland's growth so the overall contribution is positive and created opportunities for the Irish, there will be disadvantages to the many advantages unfortunately.


I want to know if you believe the Irish should tolerate immigration of lower socio-economic migrants from Africa?

Anonymous said...

Denny- you sound like a half- reasonable soul in a sea of bigots so no name calling, and as to your question below-

"I want to know if you believe the Irish should tolerate immigration of lower socio-economic migrants from Africa?"

the answer is YES!!

It is disingenous and ungenerous to now get on a racist high horse and denounce anyone who immigrates into Ireland seeking to improve their lives as a negative influence...
Irish people did it years ago...were treated just how your fellow travellers are treating Africans in places in Britain and before that in the 19th century in the US...
and it was on an ethnic basis ...the Irish were similiar to dogs in many WASPish Americans minds...esp. when as often happened they didn't speak English...in Britain it was only the Irish and Blacks the English objected to and discriminated against....

Here's why your line of thought is wrong Denny-

the vacancies that exist in the Irish economy at the bootom of the food chain exist currently.. FACT....
with 5 million Irish people already on the island. There are a large number of unemployed Irish people. That has been the case for years and will NOT change. There are people who do not WANT to work. FACT.
The economy needs menial and unskilled jobs to be done and will grind to a halt without it. FACT.
The Germans fuelled their post war economic growth thru Turkish labour, the French through North African and the Americans thru a mix of varius waves of immigration from all over the globe. This lack of native unskilled willing labour is a trend all over the western world....and needs a solution.

What are you going to do ....encourage a Nazi totalitarian like response where Irish people are forced towork those jobs....what do you think the social response to that would be down in Sheriff St or wherever??

Why morally should we insist only on skilled migrant visas? (generally it is only the most racist, selfish and generally dilikable peoples that insist on this...see the Australians as example 1)
Do unskilled poor people not also have the right to dream, improve their lives and earn some money to feed their families?? Are they to be forever condemned to poverty, just so long as they are kept at arms length from the West?? What do you think will happen in the poorer parts of the globe if the West had a similiar visa regime that forever locked out unskilled migrants ...?? Do you think people would not try...just give up?? Do you think that Africans would not see this as discriminatory, racist and selfish?? Do you not think there would be more resentfulness and problems as a cause??

(Or have you not thought what other people might think or feel....hmmm)

Migrants will always come ...no matter what the visa system. The best way to handle it is through a managed, fair and reasonable system...not through some short-sighted hard-edged reponse that is doomed to failure....

Anonymous said...

anonymous 14:48

The one question you and those of like mind wont answer is this: where has mass black/islamic immigration been a success? where has it not caused major problems?

Can you help?

Anonymous said...

anonymous I lived for quite a while in the Netherlands- they had a much higher level of immigrants than we do now and a more pleasant, tolerant and open society I have not come across. Of course there were some problems but on a small scale and not indicative of how the majority beahaved...
show me a perfect society ... and I'll call you a fantasist..
There will always be tensions when people migrate from one part of the world to another- they exist when it is the same racial group- see Somalis in Kenya or Ugandans in Tanzania....or Poles in England..and when it is peoples of a different ethnic group. So what...it's the OTHER some narrow minded people object to...

But look at a society like the US where wave after wave of migration has built a nation ...all types of migrants and it's success...look at the success of the British Empire in the 19thc and the multitude of different peoples that made it up and contributed to its success ...and you'll understand migration is often a force for good and can power an economy fwd...look at China...full of different ethnic groups that migrate across such a huge country and region to search for work, earn money and create wealth...before liberalisation of her economy China was made up of lots of ethnic groups generally staying in their own region/ province...since the changes of the early 90's so much has changed largely because of migration ...

Denny said...

"The economy needs menial and unskilled jobs to be done and will grind to a halt without it. FACT."
True but I believe we should fill that void through migration within EU accession states. There are benefits to being part of the EU and I like to think that any economic imbalances will be evened out by forces within the EU.

I think that the economic forces within the EU act considerably more efficiently than the economic forces in Africa. For example, Ireland during the Celtic Tiger saw huge improvements in standards of living and as a result more of the population received a tertiary education. This resulted in increased labour costs, prices were therefore higher and people expected higher incomes. The Polish filled the gap for cheap labour. Now with increasing fuel costs, our low tax rate is not incentive enough to keep the companies here with our high labour costs. There has actually been a significant movement of investments over to Poland recently. The economic forces are playing out and balancing, not with complete efficiency but relative efficiency. African economies do not experience that kind of efficiency between their countries let alone any efficient economic forces between Africa and Ireland in terms of migration of labour, effect on incomes and investments (this is FACT - I can post links to articles by several well known economists which support this.) For example, when we booming they will come. When we gloom the unskilled Africans will not leave. Unskilled labourers from EU accession states WILL leave. We will feel the drag of this effect.

What I am trying to emphasize is that there is an abundant supply of unskilled EU labourers. Enough of a supply to fill any vacancies in the Irish economy. This is a result of our very beneficial membership of the EU. What benefit or advantage is there to migration of unskilled African labourers over unskilled EU labourers?

Anon I think we have completely different views of the world.

Your opinions are formed from very raw human emotions. People with your mindset are needed in the world but I don't think policies which stem from that mindset are always appropriate. At some point, you have to draw boundaries. I don't think that emotions should be mixed up with laws and policies.

Poor Africans have a right to try improve their lives, no one can blame or judge them. My concern would be on careful control of what effects it has on the Irish economy and society.

I am aware the visa process is incredibly inefficient and complex at the moment. I believe it should be made easier and quicker. What I would like to see is a system where visa applications are processed quickly; where they can be granted and revoked efficiently.

With this system, the effect of immigration on the economy and society is carefully monitored. If anything negative starts to occur (from an economists perspective), the authorities can use their control (via visas) to correct the problem. If positive things are happening, then it is left alone or an increased number of visas issued accordingly.

I admit I am not well informed as to what exactly causes the 5% unemployment figure and it could well be lazy people. I think if they controlled the migration of unskilled African labour, as listed above, then they could carefully assess just how beneficial it is. AND in the case when we are slumping and experiencing the inefficient force of them not leaving we can revoke visas. You will hate the idea of this but it is practical from an economic perspective and it is economic reasons that brought them here in the first place so it is a fair ground of assessment.

I am well informed at how the majority of unskilled African labour arrived here. It is not through controlled processes for many of them. These illegal immigrants develop lives here and when it comes time for the rule of law to be applied to them, it is inhumane to deport them because they have settled and developed roots here. The result is that we can not control the effect this has on the economy whether or not it is positive or negative. Do not underestimate the size of this problem - there are thousands of illegal immigrants in this country. Certainly enough to have a considerable effect (whether it is positive or negative) on our economy. I simply oppose the fact that we have no control over this aspect of our economy.

Do you disagree? Please in your answer don't address the fact that the Irish have done it in the past - I do not accept that as a reason for why we should relinquish controls over our economy and society in this day AND the term racist has lost its power because it has degraded to a cheap insult when discussing issues involving Africans.

So my questions to you are:
1. What benefit or advantage is there to migration of unskilled African labourers over unskilled EU labourers to the Irish?
2. Do you believe illegal immigrants who we have no control over should be allowed to stay?
3. Is it rational to ignore economics and economic models on the topic because you feel sorry for people?

Anonymous said...

Nigerians, from my experience, appear to have an ingrained psyche whereby cheating, lying, ignorance, and outragious expectancy are the order of the day.
They are the most obnoxious race of people on the planet, no contest.
I recently heard a story of a lazy Nigerian complaining about other foreign workers regarding the numbers of them and their abilities. If you don't like it, you know what you can fucking well do!
They come over here and extract every possible benefit going, without the slightest hint of being grateful; then start complaining if they're not entitled to something for one reason or another.
Look at the state of the UK at present largely due to Africans - black teenagers murdering each other nearly on a weekly basis, African gangs involved in every scam going, such as 419 scams (Internet), shipping stolen cars and car parts back to Africa, people smuggling, drugs, murder, rape, gang violence in London.
The glorification of violence and excessive greed thats dished out by black music artists only serves to re-inforce this retarded mindset, and ensure it continues on into the future!
Christ, if 50 fuckin Cent is one of the most prominent figures of your race, you know your in serious trouble.

Anonymous said...

anonymous 15.58. Exactly my experience. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either wilfully blind or a total fool.

Kevin

Anonymous said...

anonymous 15:58 you are so full of cliches it's ridiculous...

u say :
"They come over here and extract every possible benefit going, without the slightest hint of being grateful; then start complaining if they're not entitled to something for one reason or another.
Look at the state of the UK at present largely due to Africans - black teenagers murdering each other nearly on a weekly basis, African gangs involved in every scam going, such as 419 scams (Internet), shipping stolen cars and car parts back to Africa, people smuggling, drugs, murder, rape, gang violence in London.
The glorification of violence and excessive greed thats dished out by black music artists only serves to re-inforce this retarded mindset, and ensure it continues on into the future!
Christ, if 50 fuckin Cent is one of the most prominent figures of your race, you know your in serious trouble."


good lord...are you simple-

what you object to Nigerians because they don't meet your standard of gratefulness for what are entitlements under the asylum or immigration system??...straight away a racist mindset...because they are black they should be more grateful ...kmt

surely if you think that they are making a mockery of the immigration/ benefits system then it's the stupidity of the Irish people you should complain about first, no?? (btw I am Irish before u start saying something..)

you say African gangs are running amock in the UK...my friend, Africans in the Uk are very hard-working, excellent students and very polite....it's some (and I emphasise SOME for the more simple-minded) Jamaicans u need to watch out for...given that I've lived in the Uk some time and have many African friends, I know what I'm talking about...

and then you embarrass yourself with foolish gibberish about black music...how much have you ever listened to?? don't even answer that my friend, we all have an idea of the answer...

you single out one tiny element of black life and try and make it representative of all of black culture...

you've never heard of Martin Luther King, of Toussaint L'Ouverture, of Olaudah Equino, of Chinua Achebe, of Ngugi waThiongo...

I would expect little else...

please please, go out and educate yourself

Anonymous said...

Black murder rates are about 6 times those of whites. Blacks everywhere, i repeat, everywhere, are disproprtionately violent and criminal.

Of course you have some nice ones as students, so what? You get exceptions to everything.