Sunday, 30 March 2008

Do we need Christianity (3)

A very good Comment, unfortunately Anonymous has come in. I reproduce it below in blue and give my responses, as the points he/she raise are significant

It seems to me that by highlighting the machinations of crazy Islamists, it somehow serves to divert attention from the real destroyers of our own little piece of civilization. Because the real architects of our destruction are of course not the Islamists acting alone but rather our own “Liberal Elite” who maintain the “Trojan” horse for them, so to speak.

These so-called Liberals have already proven to be a most subversive and most toxic influence either within European or indeed Irish society over the last 2000 years, and indeed in the case of this country, surpassing in destructive consequences, even the worst that our larger neighbor ever threw at us throughout our troubled and lengthy history. The agenda of our own “liberals” to my own way of thinking will ultimately prove far more deadly than anything the Islamists may yet hurl at us, at least in the immediate future.

[So far not so good. Subversive of what? Of the narrow-minded, obscurantist, poverty-stricken, emigration riddled country we had when religion ruled, and where clergy could literally and figuratively take us for ride? If that environment was subverted, well, good riddance to it.]

Most religions are grounded in some whacky delusional dogma, willful indoctrination, and demanding of blind obedience. In essence however they provide little more than self-induced dementia. [I'm with you there my friend, I'm with you there!]

They come in many shapes and varieties. The only question which arises then is whether one particular brand of such “religious induced” dementia is manifestly more dangerous than another, and of course here Islam does score maximum points.
[Now you’re talking, and this is where I see a meeting of minds coming] But yet if ever forced to make a choice, as to the least destructive force, between Islamists or “liberals” I think that I would have to choose Islam.

Because it remains to my own opinion the less threatening of the two for the present time. One thing manifestly clear is that Islam will certainly never be tolerant to any degree of “liberalism”. Even while demented “liberals” themselves seem eager and willing to act as cringing apologists for it. But while Islamic nations may be considered, particularly barbaric and backward, they are certainly not on the other hand, rushing headlong into the same levels of decadence and chaos that Western society now appears to be heading. Western civilization gives every indication of being self-mutilating, even imploding upon itself, to the point of even being almost apologetic for any of its achievements!

[But you see, what exactly are these problems of Western Civilization you keep referring to? Let’s take Scandinavia, where this ‘debased’ culture has reached its zenith. Here they have a peaceable, law-abiding, eductaed tolerant society, topping the Human Development Index in virtually every metric. And, they are highly charitable and giving - they top the world in per capita support for poor nations. Ok, they drink and shag a lot, and don't go to church, but, even allowing this to be a problem, does this represents the decadent Western Civilization you refer to? If so, would you prefer Ireland of the fifties, or Saudi Arabia today?]

But this surely is not the product of Islam alone, but rather is more directly attributable to the Trojan handiwork of our own “liberals”. For while behaving liberally towards all others, they inevitably they do so at the expense of their own. [Agreed] You may hold certain reservations about my musings above, but tune in some time to any TV interview where the blessed Mary R. might be pontificating. Yes, she the most sanctimonious one, of UN notoriety. She who had bestowed upon her, many blessed mansions in Geneva, New York, and Co. Mayo but to name a few. Surely if you have ever clapped eyes upon the face of a deep seated insanity, then it will be clearly recognisable, imprinted upon her visage and within her utterances. The true face of a pious and ardent liberal.

[Rock on man, I'm liking you more by the minute!] But perhaps another small test to gauge the potency of the deadly Liberal virus which has been released upon us all; just take a look at the website of NCCRI. Or indeed the many others “multiculturalists” who are now clamouring for the dismemberment of our own historic small island nation, so as to make way for their “new” more fragmented United nations of Ireland, while our own so- called elected representatives watch idly from the sideline as though preparing for the wake.

[Absolutely true]

Or watch while RTE blatantly manipulate news, facts and situations to conform to their own strictures of PC, dictated once again by our own fascist “liberals”. Watch while our political masters like white bwanas disburse a Billion of Irish taxpayers’ money annually to a handful of African despots, while at home their colleagues are forced to defend a crumbling, third world so-called health care service, mainly to appease Bono and Geldof.

[You’re singing my song]

Listen to the news reports of Irish children forced to attend sub-standard and even rat-infested schools, while our elected representatives seem more eager to squander 300-400 million annually on a farcical asylum system, one which regularly attracts scavengers and scammers from as far away as 5,000 klms. The list is too long and depressing.
Then consider the role our liberals play.

[Ok. This is a well argued and well constructed comment. But really, I don't see any disagreement between us. The essence of my original post was exactly what you’re saying. That multi-culti, PC liberals are destroying what we now are (not 1950 Ireland) and that maybe the Church Militant is needed again to route the Islamic Beast which now threatens us.

So in essence my position is that 'liberalism' has helped us shake off the stranglehold of the Church, but has gone too far and lost the run of itself, and is now creating a whole new set of problems. But remember - we'd still be in 1950s Ireland had it not been for liberals.]


Anonymous said...

"But remember - we'd still be in 1950s Ireland had it not been for liberals."

If things continue as they are, in another 20 years you will pray you were back in 1950's Ireland, for as backward and benighted as people were back then, they were still your people living together with you in your land.

Anonymous said...

I wrote this earlier. I wrote it because now after reading a book about Free Presbyterianism I now understand how the likes of Paisley works. I'm not saying this changed my point of view of him, but it did help me understand him and his sort a lot more.
Like Islam, I've read a little about it, and the more I read the more convinced I am that it's not what I'd want for society.
After a life time of living in the north, and my own community being oppressed and not treated equally why would anyone want to see more restrictions and inequality in any society. Especially women.
I would not want my daughter or grand daughters living in a society that says a man is superior therefore he can have up to four wives and treat them however the hell he likes, that their sisters can be killed even for being seen in the company of a man who is not a relative, and forced in to forcibly arranged marriages which must by definition involve forced sex? Why would any western man opr womanwant that for his children.

Yes I understand how our societies have gone over the top on many issues. Not just feral youth or drunkenness, but the family unit is all but gone especially with so many one parent families now being the norm. I'd still rather that extreme that the Islamic alternative.

SAVANT said...

Either of you (typhoo/big bill) could be right, but I'd go with typhoo. It's not good and it weakens us, but Ireland in the fifties? No thanks.

The question is this - has liberal multi-culti weakened our will to resist Islam.

Anonymous said...

Ireland in 1950 was poor admittedly, but was peacable, law-abiding - you could walk the streets. Few illigiitimate births, families were united. Thats what we've lost.

Anonymous said...

Savant says:

"[So far not so good. Subversive of what? Of the narrow-minded, obscurantist, poverty-stricken, emigration riddled country we had when religion ruled, and where clergy could literally and figuratively take us for ride? If that environment was subverted, well, good riddance to it.]"

Are we moving towards some sort of Catholic/Atheist alliance in order to defend democracy against Islamic fanatics? If so a couple of things need to be straightened out. The idea that Catholicism was dreadful but suicide bombers are worse is not going to get us very far. It is more likely to lead to cynicism than to any desire to fight for democracy and decency.

Here and elsewhere, Savant seems to believe that the savage attacks on the Church in relation to child abuse are justified. In fact they constitute a repulsive witch-hunt. This does not mean there were NO clerical child abusers. However some of the allegations made by the Nazis against the Jews were also correct e.g. there were Jewish Bolsheviks as well as Jews in the American mafia. Of course the Nazis did not sympathise with the victims of Communism or the mafia. They used these victims to justify their own atrocities and their hatred of the Jews. Goebbels believed that all propaganda should have SOME basis in fact so the Nazis found these victims useful and would have been disappointed if they did not exist.

That is precisely how our anti-clerical liberals regard real child abuse victims - and these constitute a tiny minority in the context of all the allegations against the Church.

Can I prove this? For the past several years I have been researching one specific aspect of our child abuse "scandal" i.e. allegations of child killing made against the Christian Brothers in particular. These claims have been made by national newspapers, by leaders of child "victims" organisations and other prominent worthies. Several of these accusations relate to times when no boy died of any cause. Therefore I refer to them as "Murder of the Undead" or "Victimless Murders".

My argument is this. If some person claims that you sexually abused him 30, 40 or even 50 years ago you cannot prove your innocence. (It is not possible to 'prove' a negative.) However if the same person alleges that you murdered a boy AND no boy actually died at that time, then you have gone a long way towards discrediting your accuser.

The following article (from illustrates my method. In fact it is the episode that started me on this Crusade nearly 9 years ago. (I can supply a dozen or so similar examples if anyone is interested.)

In the Middle Ages Jews were sometimes accused of murdering Christian Boys for ritual reasons. These accusations are called "Blood Libels" by historians. The accusers usually waited until a boy died or went missing and then then blamed the Jews.

In the 21st Century we have become more "progressive". A number of leading members of "Victims" groups have accused the Christian Brothers of murdering boys AT TIMES WHEN NO BOY DIED OF ANY CAUSE. I refer to these as "Murder of the Undead" allegations. "Victimless Murders" is another possible description.

The following story involves a number of people who are prominent actors in our child abuse saga.

PATRICK WALSH is a leading member of Survivors of Child Abuse (SOCA Ireland).

MICK WATERS is head of SOCA UK. He has a website which is full of furious ranting. Contributors frequently accuse the Christian Brothers of killing children.

PATSY McGARRY is still Religious Affairs correspondent of The Irish Times. (One of his predecessors was John Cooney who falsely accused the late Archbishop John Charles McQuaid of paedophilia.)

CONOR BRADY was editor of The Irish Times in 1999. He ascribed false allegations of child killing to a "procedural error"! (He was succeeded by GERALDINE KENNEDY but it makes no difference.)

Rory Connor
15 August 2006

Article by Patsy McGarry, Irish Times, 25 September 1999,

In Croke Park tomorrow, the Artane Boys Band will strike up, as much a part of the All-Ireland tradition as the final itself. Patrick Walsh was in the band once. He told his story to Patsy McGarry.

It was cold in Croke Park on April 12th 1966. Thousands had gathered there with the President, Mr. Eamon de Valera and the Taoiseach Mr. Sean Lemass, for a pageant marking the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising.

Also there was inmate number 14723 from Artane industrial school. Patrick Walsh was on his first outing with the Artane Boys Band. He was 12 and played B-flat clarinet. He had joined the band for safety.

Boys in the band proper were an elite. They were untouchable. It wouldn’t do for them to arrive at Croke Park with black eyes, bruises or broken limbs. Patrick’s brothers began to teach him to play the B-flat clarinet. They presented him to Brother Joseph O’Connor who was in charge of the band. “OK” he said, “he’s in”.

Patrick, two of his brothers and their sister, Mary had been in industrial schools since August 1955. They were from Churchtown, Dublin, but their parents marriage had failed. They were detained by order of the Dublin Children’s Court and were to be held by the State until they were 16.

Each was “charged” with “having a parent who does not exercise proper guardianship. Patrick was not yet two. His “sentence of detention” would continue until his 16th birthday, September 25th, 1969.

Before entering Artane, Patrick had never encountered violence. There, however, boys were beaten with straps on the slightest pretext, he recalled.

“A classroom of 25 11-year olds and every single one of them crying for mercy. Every day. Can you imagine the sound that makes I can still hear it in my head… for not understanding a Gaelic word, or not being quick enough with a response to some mathematical problem.”

The man in charge of the infirmary would get extremely agitated when boys came in clutching their stomachs after being punched by Christian Brothers. He was afraid of appendicitis. PATRICK RECALLED TWO FUNERALS OF BOYS WHO HAD BEEN RUSHED TO THE MATER HOSPITAL WITH “ACUTE APPENDICITIS” [my emphasis].

Not yet in the band proper, Patrick was also beaten. Records say that between October 1963 and October 1964 he was detained in the infirmary five times. Each followed bad beatings.


Patrick has come to believe that “you can judge the nobility of a people by the way they deal with children”. “I have to say I didn’t see much nobility in the Irish.” He does not consider himself Irish. He is 46 today.

The Artane Boys Band is no longer run by the Christian Brothers.

Letter to Irish Times, 9 October 1999

SIR, - The Christian Brothers note with deep regret and disbelief the seriously misleading article by Patsy McGarry, “Artane Boys faced the music – and straps” (The Irish Times, September 25th). The main source for the story seems to be Mr. Patrick Walsh, a former resident of Artane Industrial School.

Mr. McGarry made no attempt to check his story with the Christian Brothers. The article refers to boys arriving at the infirmary “clutching their stomachs after being punched by Christian Brothers”. In this context Patrick Walsh is quoted as saying that he “recalled two funerals of boys who had been rushed to the Mater Hospital with ‘acute appendicitis’”.

It is outrageous that an award winning journalist should include such extremely serious assertions in an article in The Irish Times without even bothering to check the facts. The implication is that the boys who were beaten and seriously injured by the Brothers were then dispatched to hospital where they died. The use of quotation marks around the words ‘acute appendicitis’ seems to imply that the boys died from some other cause. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT NO BOY RESIDENT IN ARTANE DIED WHILE PATRICK WALSH WAS THERE.

The article also refers to records showing that Patrick Walsh was detained in the infirmary five times between October 1963 and October 1964, “each following severe beatings”. No doubt the reference to records and the inclusion of definite dates are meant to show the authenticity of the story. One would have to ask however if Patsy McGarry has checked these records. In fact the records for Artane Industrial School show that Patrick Walsh was never admitted to the infirmary during that period.

Your correspondent, and you as Editor, must surely be aware of the Government commission (May 1999) into childhood abuse in reformatory and industrial schools and other places. It is astonishing, therefore, that such an irresponsible and misleading article has been published by The Irish Times. We would ask you please to set the record straight.

Yours, etc.

Brother J.K. Mullan
Province Leader
Christian Brothers Provincialate,
Cluain Mhuire,
North Circular Road,
Dublin 7.

9 October 1999
A procedural oversight occurred as a result of which Mr. Walsh’s allegations were not put to the Christian Brothers in advance of publication.

A further error took place in citing Mr. Walsh’s dates of admission to the infirmary. Artane records show that he was admitted four times between October 1964 and October 1965.

The Irish Times is happy to put this clarifying information from the Christian Brothers on the public record. The errors are very much regretted. – Ed, IT.

Letter to Irish Times, 19 October 1999

Sir, - I refer to Brother Mullan's letter of protest (October 9th) wherein he makes heavy weather of Patsy McGarry's highly revealing article on the terror endured by children held at Artane. (The Irish Times, September 25th).

In his enthusiasm to "put the record straight" as he sees it, Brother Mullan has placed in the public domain what we hitherto only suspected - that the order of the Christian Brothers has been permitted to retain custody and control of the medical files of those entrusted to them by the State, even though those files are rightly the property of the Eastern Health Board and/or the Department of Education.

For months now SOCA has been pressing the various departments of Government in Dublin to locate the medical files of the victims.

It is truly astonishing that the very people who are the subject of one of the most extensive Garda investigations in the history of the State are allowed to keep possession of what are State documents compiled under the provisions of the 1908 Childrens Act. Whatever next? - Yours etc.

Survivors of Child Abuse,
King Edward Road,


Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform

7 December 1999

Mr. Jim Higgins T.D.
Dail Eireann

Dear Jim,

I wish to refer further to your letter dated 10th November 1999 on behalf of Mr. Rory Connor regarding an article in the Irish Times in relation to Artane Industrial School.

I have been informed by the Garda authorities that an investigation team has been set up to examine allegations in relation to Artane. All allegations of physical and sexual abuse are being thoroughly investigated, with the files being forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions where appropriate. IN RELATION TO THE SUGGESTION THAT CHILDREN DIED AS A RESULT OF THIS ABUSE, I UNDERSTAND THAT THE GARDA INVESTIGATION, TO DATE, HAS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS ALLEGATION. [my emphasis]

With regard to the initiation of a prosecution for incitement to hatred, you will appreciate I have no function in the investigation or prosecution of criminal complaints. I have accordingly arranged to have Mr. Connor's correspondence brought to the attention of the Garda authorities.

Yours sincerely,

John O'Donoghue T.D.

I understand that the Gardai sent a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) recommending that the Irish Times be prosecuted under the Prevention of Incitement to Hatred Act. The DPP refused. He never gives a reason but I understand he felt that a bogus allegation of child murder does not PROVE that the acusers are motivated by religious hatred!

HOWEVER the DPP once prosecuted a bus driver who had an altercation with a black passenger and told him to "go back where you came from". The man was found guilty of incitement to hatred and lost his job. It looks like racial hatred is a lot easier to prove than the religious variety!

An alternative explanation is that our "liberal" elite have no objection to hatred directed against the Catholic Church. In fact they regard anti-clericalism as a necessary component of "liberalism".

Rory Connor
11 Lohunda Grove
Dublin 15

15 August 2006

SAVANT said...

Ok, I take your point on the child abuse accusations. There's surely a lot of injustice of the kind you refer to. But child abuse (and dont forget the Curch fought all allegations tooth and nail)is just one problem I have with organised religion.

I have mentioned several others. So again, what I'm saying is that we needed 'liberalism' to loosen the stranglehold of the Church, but we might need the 'old' Church to fight back Islam. A lousy choice, I agree, but that's my proposition.

Anonymous said...

OK a final point. The main reason why the Church ORIGINALLY "fought all (actually most) allegations tooth and nail" is that most are false. You don't have to take my word for it. See two essays by the British cultural historian Richard Webster on his website i.e. "States of Fear, the Redress Board and Ireland's Folly" and "The Christmas Spirit in Ireland". In the latter essay he suggests that up to 90% of allegations are false. (I suggest that the % is even higher).

I strongly suspect that Webster does not have much time for the Catholic Church. However he has written extensively about false allegations against (lay) social workers in the UK and he recognises the similarities with the witch-hunt in Ireland. This is another case of rivals being brought together by the recognition that an enemy wants to destroy them both!

Actually I think that you have left it far too late. The Catholic Church today is not that of John Charles McQuaid or Cornelius Lucey. There are at least three Bishops who are so keen to apologise to alleged 'victims' that they have thrown their own priests to the wolves.

I know of a case in one diocese where an accused priest had criminal charges dropped by the DPP AND went on to win a civil case that was taken against him by alleged 'victims'. When a spokesman for the diocese was asked to comment, he said that "this doesn't prove that he is innocent"!

The morale of the clergy has been shattered by this witch-hunt. In the 1960s several priests and bishops made an effort to reach out to socialists, humanists etc with a view to helping the poor. I believe their efforts were rejected by Workers Party types who were more motivated by hatred of the clergy than by love of the poor. If secularists NOW want an alliance with the Church against the Barbarians at the Gates, then you need to do something positive. Just dropping the reflex anti-clericalism is no longer enough.


Anonymous said...

I think Anonymous must be wrong here. 90% of claims false? I doubt that and I also doubt that this was the reason the Church fought against it.

We can see this in the way they moved around known abusers from parish to parish even before any formal claim was made against them.